Too much Gay shit in this group: Standing up for Tolerance

Extracts from a recent Flickr group discussion:

I learned something valuable and maybe personally important (for me at least) by 'stepping up' to the plate and advocating the idea of being tolerant for str8 men's sometimes belligerant or homophobic attitudes. What do you think?
Unfortunately, I found that even gay men are sometimes even more belligerent or discriminatory (toward st8 men) than they are us of. I explain the context(situation) and then show the actual discussion boards exchanges below.

I'm considering now what 'real' actions I can take to make a solution actualize.

Flickr is (undoubtedly) the world's largest photo-sharing site.
There are discussion groups inside Flickr, devoted to various interests.
This group "Naked Fun in College" has had an intellectually interesting and politically-compelling series of exchanges lately between a very few (extremely small minority of the members). Recently, the most active members -the ones who have posted the majority of photos (and who are interested in male / gay / homophilic photos) have left and started a separate group. But I hated to be 'chased' away since the actual photos being posted now are simply just amateur porn (coeds giving guys blow jobs or showing cunts). Where most of the pics up to this point were guys butt and ball and limp dicks in situation where nudity was used as a 'party' joke - not explicit sexual behavior.
Flickr is undergoing phenomenal growth recently and had had to deal with the problem of censorship in a rather decisive way. Currently, there are many on-going debates about the issue of censorship and under-age child possibly accessing public photos of naked people including pornograpy.

So this was one debate where I entered the fray - because the real issue is NOT about gay or straight but about what is pornography and what is a group with good leadership.

=====================================

SpiruAgnui says:
The topic is supposed to be "Naked Fun in College", yet assholes such as QueerJames keep posting pornographic fag pictures of cocks, etc. rather than the candid, naked (and yes, co-ed) material that this group was intended for. If you want to post that, start your own group and limit it strictly to your fagget bullshit.
Posted at 11:27PM, 8 June 2007 JST ( permalink )


nudegayguy says:
I'm one of those queers. I see the title is "Naked Fun in College." The description asks for naked pictures. A picture of a cock is nudity no matter how you slice it. Frankly, I'd love to see more of the cocks and you can certainly show the ladies in any fashion/style/dress you please.
Posted 2 weeks ago. ( permalink )


obie099 says:
Nice post, SpiruAgnui. Are you always an asshole, or was this a special time?
Posted 8 days ago. ( permalink )


yppy20 says:
@spiruagnui: You do know that homophobia is the best indicator of latent homosexuality?
Posted 8 days ago. ( permalink )


boot2 says:
I agree Spiru, get that shit out of here. Enough is enough.
Posted 4 days ago. ( permalink )


SpiruAgnui says:
OK, look.... Apologies for my anti-homosexual rant. But this group is intended for candid pictures of college nudity, not blatent pornography. Any jerk can just take an upclose shot of their body.. but that's not what this group is intended for. Seriously, if that's what you're posting, start another group for that subject specifically.
Posted 34 hours ago. ( permalink )


yppy20 says:
@ SpiruAgnui: the vast majority of the pictures posted conform to your "rule" - and some don't. Why do you feel so uncomfortable seeing a penis, even in thumbnail? You DO realise that "naked fun" means you are bound to encounter some penises? Perhaps you should join "naked college girls", instead....

" pornographic fag pictures of cocks, etc"
Please: do you really think we consider you heterosexual because you used an expletive? Quite the contrary: the fact that you feel the need to "speak out" makes you suspect, at least. As said: please try to come to terms with your (subdued) homosexuality

Oh and @ boot 2: please: I couldn't *possibly* formulate a probable answer. Your submission is just too..... [ytes, this is how I feel] STUPID!
Originally posted 24 hours ago. ( permalink )
yppy20 edited this topic 24 hours ago.


sunbuns says:
Unfortunately, any real possibility for further discussion is probably going to be moot. The visciousness (or repressed anger) among these few last few posting on this discussion has reached an unacceptable level.

While I might understand the reason for the vociferous opinions offered above, the fact is that 'real' pornography -- not mine own definition but the legal one -- is now being posted in this group and they are pubic photos. It may not be long before Flickr Admin shuts it down.

I'd like to see the group be made private (or clean up its act) and also see it set rules about having no photos of explicit scenes of sex acts between any genders.

Having SEX IS NOT only WHAT having "fun in college' is about.
Even SpiruAgnui (I'm glad he apologized for his ranting) has said it clearly: "this group is intended for candid pictures of college nudity, not blatent pornography". I agree.
If you didn't notice, the vast majority of photos involved college guys showing skin, chests, butts, and penises. Coed naked parties are kind of a fantasy (for many).
Anyway, f we don't some self-correction here, then somebody else may solve this problem for us.

Flickr groups have a better chance of surviving and having success (not being deleted is the lowest standard of success) if several basic principles are kept intact and maintained:

1) A good definition of what the group's purpose is and what photos will be acceptable.
I realize that when someone casually starts a group like this -- based on 'fun' and by most people's recognition - 'nudity' and/or some forms of college 'party' behavior (dares, practical jokes, drunken pranks, etc) that it may not be easy to do that at first, but it eventually always comes down to making things(like the purpose and rules) finally clear enough or at least re-focusing on purpose and acceptabilitiy at some critical point along the way.
I think we have passed that critical point recently.

2) Having an active group admininstrator and also have active (involved) moderators. I don't find that is the case.

This group has over 3000 members but very few contributors and those people are now in conflict (stereotypical rants, name-calling, insinuations, etc) - which IS NOT acceptable for anybody (These behaviors will likely get the group busted as much as the public pornography photos).

Get the Group Admin in here. If he can't do the job, then he should give it up. Appoint serveral moderators who can assist in maintain the group's purpose and agreed upon rules.

3) Going Private - Most 'big' Flickr groups where sexual or sexy behavior / nudity is a theme go private by the time they reach 300 members (membership by invitation only, rules are clear and purpose is made obvious)

4) Self-policing
If we can't manage our groups successfully without experiencing waves of anger / recrimination and worse, discrimination, the real problems will be unsurmountable. Having porn on here whcih is publicly accessible to anyone may actually be 'criminal'. Further illegal activity / behavior may be discrimination based race, religion, gender or sexual preference, which is a crime in some US states or other countries. Displaying pornographic or obscene materials that could be easily available to minors is also illegal in some jurisdictions). Even if we're not guilty of any of that, we should manage our groups with sense of human dignity, a good sense of humor, and the respect for diversity that any college educator person should be willing to understand and hopefully advocate as a virtue, - -becaues if not, then this group hasn't earned its right to exist.

Hey, I'm not so self-righteous.. I love porn - but there is a place and another set of many many groups where that can be found and discussed. Also, it's just that we have heard only from a minute fraction of the members on this issue.

I think I speak for the majority - no matter what sexual persuasion, which gender, or what college we came from. We are Flickr U grads, let's act like it. (some members are still undergrads - while other may yet just flunk out and never get a degree LOL).
Posted 15 hours ago. ( permalink | edit | delete )


boot2 says:
Actually yppy, guess what's really stupid? A bunch of pictures of cocks. Get a life.

All you have to do is start a group called 'cock pictures' and hang out there. It'll be heaven for you.
Posted 7 hours ago. ( permalink )


ballistikcoffeeboy says:
grow the hell up... you are a homophobic asshole... u need to leave the group if you are this hostile towards our members... boot2... the same to you. why don't we just delete everything and stare at a blank screen, bcuz u guys certainly wouldn't post anything if u had it your way.

-B-
Posted 6 hours ago. ( permalink )


ballistikcoffeeboy says:
sunbuns: just because he apologized for his homophobic rant doesn't make it go away... doesn't make the rest of us (who are gay members on here) feel vindicated... are u the moderator? if so, i'm out of here. you are as homophobic as he is by allowing it to be said. how DARE you say he's homophobic BUT he's right...

??????

-B-
Posted 5 hours ago. ( permalink )


boot2 says:
ballistik are you retarded? Quit calling everyone that disagrees with you a homophobe. Just because I don't like looking at cock all day doesn't mean I'm a homophobe, it just means that I'm not a homo. God, what a prick you are.

I suggested an EASY solution that would make everyone happy and you come on here crying and whining, feeling all oppressed and calling everyone names.

This group is not called 'take a picture of your own cock' just like it's not a group called 'take a picture of your dog'. It would be just as annoying if everyone started posting pictures of their pets. Just get that stupid shit out of here. Please.
Posted 17 minutes ago. ( permalink )


sunbuns says:
No, I'm not the moderator.... just trying to be a voice of moderation.

Obviously, that attempt seemed to fall short of what some people (most noticeably Ballistikcoffeeboy), who apparently seems to advocate -- 'burning homophobes at the stake' (my words of analogy - not his) and even people who someone think is homophobic but who is obviously not (myself being one). How can I be homophobic -- I'm GAY, biyaatch! (LOL)

It was not so long ago that gay people were called 'faggots' (a word Spiru used in his initial posting) because they were added as extra and insignificant fuel for the flames that burned witches, murders and political prisoners.

If you're not willing to allow someone (yes, EVEN str8 men) the basic human dignity of admitting (publically even) their mistake (saying something cruel, inflammatory, obscene, unthinking, or morally/politically incorrect), then that may very well be an 'evil' equal if not even worse than the homophobia you and I so despise. I'd say that attitude borders on 'heterophobia'. After all, he ONLY said (wrote) some 'words' and then he apologized (yes, I realize he didn't retract them -- but you sound like you would NOT ever forgive him - no matter what he could say or do).

To then deny that anything he could ever say could not possibly be 'right' is even more discriminatory than his calling those photos he referred to as "your fagget bullshit."

Obviously, it's an emotionally supercharged issue for several people. I'm not at all trying to say he was right about his homophobic rant. I am saying I recognize that he tried to apologize.
What else can he do?

Only a few years ago, not only would he have not felt any need to apologize but he'd probably be supported in making such discriminatory remarks by dozens of other people.

His thinking is right about this 'public' Flickr group's purpose: "intended for candid pictures of college nudity, not blatent pornography" because those are the TOS (Terms of Service) for operating a Flickr group.

The real issue is not showing male or female nudity - it IS about showing photos of sex acts (or pornography) in a PUBLIC Flickr group.

Concerning my seeming to forgive (not overlook) bad human attitudes -- I try to model the type of attitudes and behavior that I expect reasonable humans to demonstrate. I hold an even higher standard for people of my own tribe - gay men!

The fact that you interpreted my own comments to be those of a liberal straight man with a 'hidden' homophobic attitude is really telling. - - really sad actually. It shows possibly that some people's emotional control about this issue may be far overshadowing their good judgment.

I usually try to give people the benefit of the doubt - if they make a mistake once and apologize, I'll try to consider 'forgiveness' and 'acknowledging their self-growth' as desirable ways to respond to their 'change' or adjusted attitude/behavior. I felt that way about SpiruAgnui 'mistake' and subsequent 'apology'.

What's it going to prove to get on a moral high-horse and to keep on blaming, accusing, and unrelenting in a lack of understanding for human mistakes - that's a bad an attitude as what you are saying you despise.

Some of the other's comments don't even deserve any form of response. WE ALL know what it says about the person who wrote it.

The fact is the main contributors to the pool of this group's photos have already created another group and moved on. In a few short weeks, we have accumulated more photos of the guys having naked fun in college than this group has -- none of it is pornographic (meaning no erect penis or oral/vaginal/anal sex). It is currently public and maintains a policy of not allowing pornography (or even erections).

Certainly, that was a quick solution to the problem. Just make another group as several people have suggested (or demanded) above. That's the easy way out. For me, it is still a cop out - cut and run.. let the bullies win, don't show your backbone or tuck tail and slink away. I don't do that easily.

Therefore, I spoke up on this issue-- in a rational non-emotional way -- because I DO believe that gay and straight people do NOT have to always come to a point of irreconcilable differences -- that kind of 'aparteid' -- "equal but separate" thinking should have passed out of existence in the last century and I am trying to be a voice of reason and acceptance of diverse lifestyles and tolerance of different forms of sexual (and human) expression.

It is ironic that the very person who speaks up about showing tolerance, then get bashed by another gay heterophobe. Jeesh. what's the world come to? Hardly the world, that brand of misguided "queer nation radicalism "is as out of touch with the evolution of humantiy as right-wing Islamic terrorism. See... I DO HAVE strong opinions.

I see it won't be easy to accomplish that idealistic goal (str8 and gay people living togehter in peace and harmony - but it's a symbolic struggle) when people don't bother to read , or don't want to read and understand what's written, or what more insidious when they can't even see through to the core of an issue without clouding their mind's eye with some form of emotional rage or vengeful atttitude -- that's been obvious from people on both sides of the gay/straight fence.

However, I am still hopeful for humanity -- despite some very non-humanitarian attitudes expressed by a few vocal members here.

We' ve yet to hear from the 3770 other people who belong to this group or from the Group Admin himself.

Thanks for taking the time to read.

No reply is required. No public apologies necessary (on my behalf).

I don't hold people accountable for what they say (write) in the passionate heat of the moment (as long as they recognize within themselves that that IS what they've done).

Aloha and Happy Lunar Fullness to all,

Kelly
Originally posted 3 minutes ago. ( permalink | edit | delete )
sunbuns edited this topic 2 seconds ago.



sunbuns says:
boot2,
An easy solution is not always the best one. I am not ragging on you about what you wrote earlier. Just looking for a solution (if it's possible).. otherwise I'm out of here too.

The real issue is that now some (recently joining) members are posting photos of exactly what you yourself say we don't want (in this Flickr group) - close-up pics of gentials or blatant sex acts.

Of the last 60 pics uploaded, the majority or pics are not of people in college getting naked for the fun of it (meaning 'social camaraderie or getting nude or pulling off clothes at an event or party where the effect of being nude it to make people laugh, enjoy the spirit of the moment, or a college tradition - like 'naked campus runs, etc).

So I agree it would be annoying is people were taking pictures of their pet 'pussy' (or dick)- Hey, wait. .. but that IS what they are doing now. It was not like that a few week ago. I think it's because the administrator of this group is 'on summer vacation'.

The most recent pics are of coeds and college-age guys showing tits or ass, or erect cock, sucking dick or whatever - just for the shock effect.

If that is what people want, then the group needs to be made private.

The problem IS we don't have any way to KNOW what 'people' want. This group's been hijacked since the Group Admin is asleep at the helm. Otherwise, I'm afraid Flickr Admin WILL come crashing down on it.

I just don't want to quit the group and look like I'm fleeing a sinking ship. I'd rather see the Group Admin do his job. Either set standards or ask what direction the group member wan to do and then act accordingly (set a new purpose, make rules about posting photos and then enforce them). As I wrote earlier that IS how large Flickr group work (actually the only way the work successfully).

Don't you agree with that?

Besides, what would 'naked fun in college' be if we could NOT show guys and girls asses, chests/breasts, and gentials -- well naked university-aged people having fun on or near college campuses.
HOWEVER, it's the STATE (erect dick - gaping pussy, cock in ass or cunt) of these that makes the BIG difference between porn and naked fun (no pun intended).

But evidently, the Group Admin is either not interested or not involved -- who knows maybe he's graduated from college now and joined has a full-time job (LOL).

Has anybody tried writing him?

Posted June 29,2000 ( permalink | edit | delete )


========================================
Now, I'm going to try to write to the Group Admin myself.
========================================
To: Group Admin (Naked Fun in College )Flickr Group

Subject: Problem on Naked Fun in College
Are you active involved in administering this Flickr group anymore?

There are some possible Flickr TOS (terms of service) problems on the Naked Fun in College group. I see public photos of what FLICKR defines as pornography.

That should NOT be happening.
I'm not saying this because I'm a self-righteous moral judge - it's because the issue is causing there to be bickering and heated argments between some few (but vocal) members.

Can you speak up about the group's policy? or Try to get a idea from members if they want to take the group private?

I think you should act quickly before Yahoo (Flickr) shuts down the group.

If you don't care or don't answer, then I'll give up and move on (quit the group). However, it was a kind of symbolic political gesture to try to seek a solution to this (a personal conviction about how people CAN find just and viable solutions).

But the fact that there are 3700 people members of the group should tell you that you DO have some responsibilty as group admin.

One solution is to appoint other group administrators or some group moderators who can help out.

It's weird - actually scary -- that you have NO Flickr profile, no contacts and apparently NO photos available to me.

Hope to hear something (or at least read your posts at the group discussion board.

Thanks,

Kelly

========================================

After a little bit of investigation, I came to the realization and a decision.

==========================================



Hey, I just discovered the the group administrator: calvin2005rt
1) has no public photos (that's not bad - of course) but just strange.

2) has no contacts or Flickr friends

3) No profile - Zilch - Zero - Nada!

4) HE is a member of ONLY one public group - this one -one he started and now DOESN'T administrate.

That means he is may NOT even a real person.

Maybe Flickr (Yahoo) just created this group to test out the boundaries of its 'censorship' crackdown.

I wrote Flickrmail to him - but I've decided to not wait for an answer.
Anybody who starts a group and then doesn't have enough balls / guts or decency of character to post their own profile (or post pics to that group) is not the kind of person I want to spend time with (or whom I want to 'defend' or assist by trying to 'go to bat' for to uphold the principles of free speech, tolerance and human dignity for.

Spooky, creepy, and simply screwed - I'm out here.

=====================================

I'll only go back to that group if it's private and the purpose / rules are clearly stated and consistently enforced.

Society means finding the important but delicate balance between the invididual's desires and the necessity setting limits on them for the collective good.