Do the Naked Men in CMNM equate it with humiliation?

[This article is my response to the above forum discussion question was taken from Tribe.net / CMNM Tribe]

For my part, I see CMNM scenes/interactions as something far broader than just humiliation vs power/control. As I think back over my 'development' as boy/teen/young adult/ mature male, I have a strong reason to believe that nudity (showing skin) is a fundamental and important form of male-male communication. 

While power/pecking order/rank/machismo are important aspects of the CMNM lifestyle (sexual preference/fetish - I hate to limit it to being JUST a sexual fetish) I think it is just how and where such kinds of experiences actually occur (for what purpose do the men are doing the CMNM 'acts/behaviors' ) that determines more whether the 'sexual eroticism' of the CMNM involves a power exchange or not. Oddly enough, we've been having a similar (but limited because of text lenght) discussion on the CMNM Xtube group (that I started recently).

I think there are three broad categories for how and where CMNM occurs. And you can probably take that to mean its 'purpose' - it's not always has to do with just sex (getting off). When we start to view men's sexual and erotic behaviors as more than just SEX, then it both complicates and liberates the discussion/analysis.

1) planned or commercial situations where both parties involved, the clothed man (males) and naked ones are participating willingly and in predetermined locations (such as a bar, Pride event, male strip club, male lap-dancing, or private group sex parties. Some examples are nude nights at some gay bars, or stripping contests, or amateur strip nights, or hiring a nude escort or sex 'massage' escort (not to be confused with a real licensed masseur or massage therapist). Some are these 'planned' CMNM events are a part of a larger men's gathering or nude or sexual retreat - CMEN, Burning Man, or Street Festival (Southern Decadance in New Orleans or Dore Alley Fair in San Francisco).

2) pre-meditated, semi-random or semi-accidental, spontaneous or simply one-way CMNM (this is a very gray area - so it's not clearly definable)..

I don' t think that BOTH the nude and clothed male have to both be willing participants for it to count as a CMNM situation. For one of them, it may seem completely 'natural' or accidental. In these types of CMMN situations, only ONE of the two manipulates (or at least it appears that one side is cognizant and the other side is ignorant (or innocent) of 'planning' or 'willingly' participant in sexually stimulating their counterpart.

So the exact environment or conditions are very important but also very unique and specific to the situation (like good timing in while visiting your Uncle's home, etc) so that one male can either be nude or be the clothed one who enjoys seeing the nude male in a place where nudity may or may not be expected. Perhaps 'flashing' (showing your body/gentitals/nudity) to another male (clothed or not) may be a subset of this category ... or not.. I'm not quite sure.

As has been pointed out, one essential factor is whether power/control is involved and whether the sexual arousal is experienced by both (Clothed or Nude) participants. I think that the degree to which the CMNM event or act may or may not be related to whether or not it is a voluntary act or coerced or forced on the other party (by force, persuasion or manipulation that physical or psychological or social pressure or even some combinations of all three. is also important. Another important point is whether the power/submission is part of the social construct (police office / arrestee or suspect, teacher or coach / student or athlete or officer -military 'grunt' (lower rank), priest - altar boy, etc) or simply an interpersonal construct... kind of like role-playing like the father -son (daddy - boy) relationships that some gay men prefer.

3) accidental or unintended CMNM experiences (like when someone opens a toilet stall door and exposes a naked (or masturbating/erect guy), or getting locked out (pushed out) of a hotel room by college buddies, etc... ).

There are all kinds of variables that come into play and the huge extremes in the level of conscious and unconscious sexual turns-on with all of these variations. the subtleties or the directness (blatantness) are different for every purpose and every person.

Certainly, one aspect of CMNM involves flashing. Flashing is a form of exhibitionism - from mild to wild to extreme - exposing one's body, specifically the genitals and/or buttocks (or breasts in women) to another person or group of people (who may or may not be clothed). Mild forms of it are 'accidental exposure' or peekaboo flashing -which are so very common among some social groups and situations -- so much so that it is absolutely NOT even regarded as any form of 'sexual' behavior at all - especially in some circles or subcultures.

Peekaboo flashing often takes the form of nudity at college boy dorm and social events or frat parties, nudity at sporting events, rock concerts and public events where young and often drunk people gather to 'have fun'. But it also exists on a more personalized basis .. such as between college dorm roommates or when regular handymen or deliverymen come to a person's house (sometimes repeatedly) and some accidental exposure to (male) nudity occurs. There are legions of stories -- many probably urban legend -- about the voyeuristic adventures of pizza delivery boys, UPS truck drivers, and newspaper delivery boys - some of which they have documented (in blogs, Youtube,
porno, etc) but more they themselves often are actually the targeted brunt of someone else's desire for getting-naked-for-the-pizza-guy prank. I have a strong feeling that many times such 'jokes' actually have latent homoerotic desires or subcurrents underlying the 'urge' to strip or to have someone stripped. You have alluded to that type in your posts above. Why then would getting the guys naked or panstied or teabagged be the NUMBER ONE hazing or college party pranks for seemingly millions of boyish breeder-types (twinks and young college or NON-college men up to age 30 or so). Spend some time searching YouTube or similar sites (or more blatantly risque or explicit video-sharing sites) to get a better idea of what I am talking about.

So this is an important form of CMNM experience that I don't really address in the above and that's because it's not easily categorized: flashing. Perhaps it's only related or could be considered a fourth sub-category or type of CMNM.

Showing one's naked body and/or genitals (without or without an erect state) seems to transcend almost all the above categories. It may be accidental or at least spontaneous, it is definitely a conscious act (though I guess a nude 'sleepwalker' doesn't plan his actions), and it may or may not occur in socially accepted circumstances... can you call show your cock (semi-erect) to another guy on a nude beach 'flashing'? Maybe it has more to do with the reality of erotic or sensual communication (body language, etc) than mere act of being naked in front of a clothed male.

 [ The author of this article sunning his buns at a public seaside park. ]

Nudism: Father and sons / parent-child

It may be that those who don't have children (of either sex) might possibly 'project' what might be their own doubts (or fears or sexual inclinations) when they consider how gay or bisexual fathers could be perfectly comfortable being naked with their children (especially sons), or even want to make sure that they DO get the opportunity to learn / experience being comfortable naked with their dads and other men.

I don't ever recall having the slightest urge to 'know' my own sons biblically (i.e. in a less than wholesome way) and never gave the first thought to being sexually attracted to them. I'd be less than honest to say that this was not always true about some of their high school friends and soccer teammates. However, I never ever acted on these thoughts - although I wouldn't morally condemn some man who did - that's not what the issue or the original question on this thread is about.

[Note:  The photo of the two men sitting nude on a bed is of this blog author and his former boyfriend, who was young enough to be his son.]

I'm not rejecting the possibility that some fathers could have more than an affectionate or fatherly interest in their sons, but I'd bet that most do not.

 

  

In my own case, there was no willful desire, ulterior motive or sinister plan to let the boys see me (and my wife) naked. It was just a natural family thing. We did not raise them in Judeo-Christian religion-influenced America so that probably had a lot to do with reasons why it just seemed natural. We bathed together, went to public baths and hot springs resorts, and a few sometime visited nude beaches (or clothing-optional spots, in other countries - such as Greece and Munich's Englischergarten). Conversations sometimes included references to what they saw or were experiencing and there were the inevitable questions. But it was appropriate and in context - so it was a good way and good time to answer their questions: about sex or sexual attraction or feelings and behavior.

I think my sons today have a healthy respect for the human body and an amazing tolerance for

diversity - including my own bisexuality, which evidently was even clear to them long before we actually told them.

I can't say that it's all attributable to our being nude together as a family but I think it was a contributing factor or at least just one in a long series of ways of thinking and ways of treating people and being nude that helped them to be open and honest about sexual issues, and not be morally uptight or self-righteous about gender, nudity and human sexual behavior.

They are both heterosexual and over 21-year-old male adults. I am talking about our being nude when they were infants, young boys and into the teenage years. We don't have as much occasion to get naked together these days.

Well... they do mean something.... what more can I say. I'll try.

I was TRYING to support you in the idea that being nude with your sons (or any kids) can be (even should be) something that's very natural and not a cause for alarm. (like some of the hyper-moralistic gay men are suggesting).

BUT .. it does depend on the situation (where you take them and what you 'show' them both physically and your own mental messages to the boys. And it also depends a lot on the boys' (children) own self-understanding and self-acceptance.

Hey, I'm not perfect. The 'idea' of a father and son being sexually involved is a secret fantasy. I enjoy reading Handjobs

http://www.hjmag.com/handjobs/

But it IS just fantasy material - I find I am not attracted at all to my own offspring. However, the thought has crossed my mind often enough about other fathers and their sons.

I think that all boys have at least one time or another (or maybe more than that) had to come to grips with the thought of their father as a sexual being or even an object of some kind of sexual emotions or physical intimacy. But they usually grow out (of it) and grow up (more interested in other things or girls (or guys) their own age before any attraction toward their dad is acted upon. Close to 90% of boys have experience with sexual 'play' with other boys - it's about being a male of the human species.

Fathers are likely to have experienced these same fleeting feelings (and then usually they passed ) and the realization about their sons growing up sexually. I noticed that the discussion has since about stopped. There was one point that had many people curious. You avoided answering the question about your son's ages. In today's climate of "anti-child predator" and all the media hype about child sexual abuse, and Internet child/teen sex / chat rooms etc, I realize you probably don't want to admit much of anything, but you could have said just that it's private or that it's not important to the gist of the discussion. By the way, I would not fault you if you did admit you enjoy being admired by your sons (I don't care what age they are).

Hope you can get what I meant.

Kelly

Nudism: Father and sons / parent-child

It may be that those who don't have children (of either sex) might possibly 'project' what might be their own doubts (or fears or sexual inclinations) when they consider how gay or bisexual fathers could be perfectly comfortable being naked with their children (especially sons), or even want to make sure that they DO get the opportunity to learn / experience being comfortable naked with their dads and other men.

I don't ever recall having the slightest urge to 'know' my own sons biblically (i.e. in a less than wholesome way) and never gave the first thought to being sexually attracted to them. I'd be less than honest to say that this was not always true about some of their high school friends and soccer teammates. However, I never ever acted on these thoughts - although I wouldn't morally condemn some man who did - that's not what the issue or the original question on this thread is about.

I'm not rejecting the possibility that some fathers could have more than an affectionate or fatherly interest in their sons, but I'd bet that most do not.

In my own case, there was no willful desire, ulterior motive or sinister plan to let the boys see me (and my wife) naked. It was just a natural family thing. We did not raise them in Judeo-Christian religion-influenced America so that probably had a lot to do with reasons why it just seemed natural. We bathed together, went to public baths and hot springs resorts, and a few sometime visited nude beaches (or clothing-optional spots, in other countries - such as Greece and Munich's Englischergarten). Conversations sometimes included references to what they saw or were experiencing and there were the inevitable questions. But it was appropriate and in context - so it was a good way and good time to answer their questions: about sex or sexual attraction or feelings and behavior.

I think my sons today have a healthy respect for the human body and an amazing tolerance for

diversity - including my own bisexuality, which evidently was even clear to them long before we actually told them.

I can't say that it's all attributable to our being nude together as a family but I think it was a contributing factor or at least just one in a long series of ways of thinking and ways of treating people and being nude that helped them to be open and honest about sexual issues, and not be morally uptight or self-righteous about gender, nudity and human sexual behavior.
They are both heterosexual and over 21-year-old male adults. I am talking about our being nude when they were infants, young boys and into the teenage years. We don't have as much occasion to get naked together these days.

Well... they do mean something.... what more can I say. I'll try.
I was TRYING to support you in the idea that being nude with your sons (or any kids) can be (even should be) something that's very natural and not a cause for alarm. (like some of the hyper-moralistic gay men are suggesting).

BUT .. it does depend on the situation (where you take them and what you 'show' them both physically and your own mental messages to the boys. And it also depends a lot on the boys' (children) own self-understanding and self-acceptance.
Hey, I'm not perfect. The 'idea' of a father and son being sexually involved is a secret fantasy.

I enjoy reading Handjobs

http://www.hjmag.com/handjobs/
But it IS just fantasy material - I find I am not attracted at all to my own offspring. However, the thought has crossed my mind often enough about other fathers and their sons.

I think that all boys have at least one time or another (or maybe more than that) had to come to grips with the thought of their father as a sexual being or even an object of some kind of sexual emotions or physical intimacy. But they usually grow out (of it) and grow up (more interested in other things or girls (or guys) their own age before any attraction toward their dad is acted upon. Close to 90% of boys have experience with sexual 'play' with other boys - it's about being a male of the human species.

Fathers are likely to have experienced these same fleeting feelings (and then usually they passed ) and the realization about their sons growing up sexually.

I noticed that the discussion has since about stopped. There was one point that had many people curious. You avoided answering the question about your son's ages.

 In today's climate of "anti-child predator" and all the media hype about child sexual abuse, and Internet child/teen sex / chat rooms etc, I realize you probably don't want to admit much of anything, but you could have said just that it's private or that it's not important to the gist of the discussion. By the way, I would not fault you if you did admit you enjoy being admired by your sons (I don't care what age they are).

Hope you can get what I meant.
Kelly

Nudism: Father and sons

It may be that those who don't have children (of either sex) might possibly 'project' what might be their own doubts (or fears or sexual inclinations) when they consider how gay or bisexual fathers could be perfectly comfortable being naked with their children (especially sons), or even want to make sure that they DO get the opportunity to learn / experience being comfortable naked with their dads and other men.

I don't ever recall having the slightest urge to 'know' my own sons biblically (i.e. in a

less than wholesome way) and never gave the first thought to being sexually attracted to them. I'd be less than honest to say that this was not always true about some of their high school friends and soccer teammates. However, I never ever acted on these thoughts - although I wouldn't morally condemn some man who did - that's not what the issue or the original question on this thread is about.

I'm not rejecting the possibility that some fathers could have more than an affectionate or fatherly interest in their sons, but I'd bet that most do not.

In my own case, there was no willful desire, ulterior motive or sinistre plan to let the boys see me (and my wife) naked. It was just a natural family thing. We did not raise them in Judeo-Christian religion-influenced America so that probably had a lot to do with reasons why it just seemed natural. We bathed together, went to public baths and hot springs resorts, and a few sometime visited nude beaches (or clothing-optional spots, in other countries - such as Greece and Munich's Englischergarten). Conversations sometimes included references to what they saw or were experiencing and there were the inevitable questions. But it was appropriate and in context - so it was a good way and good time to answer their questions: about sex or sexual attraction or feelings and behavior.

I think my sons today have a healthy respect for the human body and an amazing tolerance for diversity - including my own bisexuality, which evidently was even clear to them long before we actually told them.

I can't say that it's all attributable to our being nude together as a family but I think it was a contributing factor or at least just one in a long series of ways of thinking and ways of treating people and being nude that helped them to be open and honest about sexual issues, and not be morally uptight or self-righteous about gender, nudity and human sexual behavior.

They are both heterosexual and over 21-year-old male adults. I am talking about our being nude when they were infants, young boys and into the teenage years. We don't have as much occasion to get naked together these days.

Well... they do mean something.... what more can I say. I'll try.
I was TRYING to support you in the idea that being nude with your sons (or any kids) can be (even should be) something that's very natural and not a cause for alarm. (like some of the hyper-moralistic gay men are suggesting).

BUT .. it does depend on the situation (where you take them and what you 'show' them both physically and your own mental messages to the boys. And it also depends a lot on the boys' (children) own self-understanding and self-acceptance.
Hey, I'm not perfect. The 'idea' of a father and son being sexually involved is a secret fantasy. I enjoy reading Handjobs
http://www.hjmag.com/handjobs/ But it IS just fantasy material - I find I am not attracted at all to my own offspring. However, the thought has crossed my mind often enough about other fathers and their sons.

I think that all boys have at least one time or another (or maybe more than that) had to come to grips with the thought of their father as a sexual being or even an object of some kind of sexual emotions or physical intimacy. But they usually grow out (of it) and grow up (more interested in other things or girls (or guys) their own age before any attraction toward their dad is acted upon. Close to 90% of boys have experience with sexual 'play' with other boys - it's about being a male of the human species.

Fathers are likely to have experienced these same fleeting feelings (and then usually they passed ) and the realization about their sons growing up sexually. I noticed that the discussion has since about stopped. There was one point that had many people curious. You avoided answering the question about your son's ages. In today's climate of "anti-child predator" and all the media hype about child sexual abuse, and Internet child/teen sex / chat rooms etc, I realize you probably don't want to admit much of anything, but you could have said just that it's private or that it's not important to the gist of the discussion. By the way, I would not fault you if you did admit you enjoy being admired by your sons (I don't care what age they are).

Hope you can get what I meant.
Kelly